I think I would like to meet you at the cafe so I can show you what we do for our coffee.

With drip coffee I look for a 20% extraction rate with a TDS of 1600. Now this is what is recommended by the SCAA. I test this regularly and I can tell you for a fact that I order coffee at all the other cafes you mention and I analyse their drip with a TDS meter and have measured coffees with a TDS reading of half what is recommended by the SCAA and with extraction rates of 26-28%. Mainly caused by brewing drip coffee with far to little coffee. Consequently most cafe's serve an underdosed over extracted drip coffee and if this is what you are use to then our drip coffee may be a little strong for you.I'd love to have you at our cafe so I could show you the preperation involved in how we make coffee and then we could cup the coffee. Drip coffee is one of our biggest sellers, so either you had a badly prepared cup of coffee or you aren't use to a strong cup of drip.

As for the espresso I'd love to meet you at the cafe and show you how we do things. If then you still have the same belief in our coffee I then will know what your knowledge in coffee is. Please contact me any time and I'll i'd love to go over our set up.

Trust me we don't have line ups because we serve sub-par coffee.
Vince

Thanks for your comments Vince. Trust me, I know that the lineups are there for a reason and I've been quite surprised by my experiences. I know from other cafe owners that they really like your coffee and aim to your standards in espresso. Some do believe your drip is a little strong, but overall I am not sure what made my experiences bad. I do really enjoy strong coffee, so I don't believe it was that.

I would love to come over and see what you can do. As I said in my review, it was my intention all along. I knew something was up and that my experiences probably weren't the norm. But it just stuck with me since it happened twice.

Anyway, would love to learn how you do your stuff. As you may have read in our About pages, our blog is about learning. We never were coffee aficionados and don't aspire to be. We want to take the experience of the everyday person and just learn what goes behind that - along the way we learn more and more. And I am sure you have much to teach.

Anyway, any interview we have and my experiences will be posted to the blog as well. I would love to be able to give you a better review, such as it is. It's not the review of a coffee buff - just someone who enjoys coffee and is starting to learn a little about it :)

Arienna,

go @#$%^&* yourself.
vince

Wow, that's just really rude and uncalled for.

It takes a lot of guts to write a review that challenges the status quo; where you go out on a limb. It's like going to everybody's favourite resturant and having a bad meal, you don't want to say anything with giving them a second chance. I've had a lot of coffee that was supposed to be good that I just didn't care for. Personal perference always has to be factored in.

Just to recap, my response above was not towards Arieanne's reponse above, rather to her private email sent to me at home.
vince

which was very much misunderstood... on both ends.

I have to chime in here regarding drip coffee at Artigiano in Kerrisdale. I only drink americanos at Arty's now. They're excellent

The drip coffee I've had at the Kerrisdale location has been dreadful: sour, fishy, bitter, acrid, downright nasty. It's barely drinkable with lots of sugar and cream. The African roasts seem much worse than the Central American ones.

Like a mascochist, I kept trying the drip coffee, hoping that it would improve. I had one wonderful cup out of at least two dozen foul cups. Not a good average.

Strong coffee is one thing, but when it smells like the liquid fish fertilizer that my mother used to pour over her geraniums, then there is a problem.

I hope this is only a problem with the Kerrisdale location. I haven't had drip coffee at any of the other locations, so I can't comment on them.

Hi Dave,

Thanks for your comments. Would it be possible to meet you at the cafe to try a cup of our drip. I'd love to discuss your concerns. Please let me know when you'd be in next so I can buy you a cup of coffee.

PS, I'm glad you love the Americanos.
Vince

Dave, thanks for opening the commentary on the blog. I just wanted to say thanks to Vince for his response to your experiences.

I also think my last Americano was amazing.

I don't believe it takes any guts at all to review anything. Happens all the time on the Internet. Besides porn, "reviews" are probably the second bigest "content group" on the Net today.

However, it does take some effort to actually build up a skilset to properly evaluate and review something, be it coffee, espresso, digital cameras, blenders, sewing machines, motorcycles, you name it. That's where the real challenge is; it'd be cool to see more people have the desire to do that before reviewing things. ;)

Just my $0.02 on the issue.
Oh PS... for the record, I thought what Vince wrote was over the top as well, but I know some of the background too - might have been better to paraphrase some of the correspondence instead ;)

Mark -- Thank you for your commentary. I chose not to reflect any of our private emails here. There were misunderstandings on both sides. I took things Vince said as personal attacks, and he did the same.

As far as being a reviewer goes, I am rather upset over the commentary made by yourself and Vince. I have never, ever, said I was knowledgeable on coffee. What I offer in my reviews is a part of my learning process and what I am learning to distinguish when I try different coffees. I think that, to most people, this will be more useful since it speaks on their terms and in words and experiences they can understand.

What we are probably arguing over here is the type of review here. I have taken careful consideration to what I say and how - and for who my readers are. I am happy with what I review and how. And think that I offer a great opportunity for readers to learn as I do. The point: I do have the desire to be qualified but choose instead to share my path openly as I gain knowledge.

An opinion is all you need to be qualified to review.

I recognize the Artigiano shield from the store on Hastings St. I happen to be the general manager of that location, so let's start, by saying if you want to talk coffee, you are welcome to find me there - although my knowledge pales in comparison to that of Vince.

A little history. When I started making coffee, I started, because I got a job doing it. I didn't drink it, I didn't like it, I'd had about 2 cups in my life, and both were only to avoid being rude. I started reading about it, and learned some techniques, and when I applied them, I found that maybe coffee didn't HAVE to be bad tasting. Eventually, I decided that I wanted to work for Artigiano - having watched Sammy & Zack compete in the Canadian Barista Championship - and embarass me. A couple of months later I was working there. I thought I knew a lot about coffee by that point... turns out, I didn't. Every day I keep learning more about it.

The drip coffee we serve at Artigiano is strong and full bodied. There is a huge misconception between STRONG coffees and DARK coffees. Dark roasts are often used to hide poor quality beans - that's where the "French" roast came from. Anyone can overroast a coffee and call it strong... but really, doesn't anything overcooked or burnt catch your tastebuds attention?

Most cafes serve coffee blends. A combination of different beans to make a pleasing (or just unimposing) taste profile. At Artigiano, most of our drip coffee is 'single origin' which means that coffee is from one type of the coffee plant, grown in one type of the world - sometimes only on one plantation. (To contrast, the Black Cat Espresso (a blend) we are using is 5 different beans from all over the world)

One of the things about Single Origin coffees is that they have to be roasted precisely to have a full bodied cup. There is no underroasting or overroasting to try and hide flavour characteristics.

I won't get into how much work is involved in our drip coffee (let's just say, it's not push button system that most cafes use - it's involved) However, a tip or two for enjoying drip coffee more: black is best for pure flavour - although I will fix mine up many different ways, depending on mood. Don't expect to gulp it down right away. After it cools a few degrees, you will notice a myriad of other flavours you cannot distinguish when it is fresh poured. I actually always let mine sit a few minutes.

Cheers,
Barrett (GM Caffe Artigiano 740 W Hastings)

Thanks Barrett. I love your story - it reminds me a lot of mine, even though our paths have been different.

I started out as a coffee hater too. Really disliked even the smell of it. Then I had a good cup one day when I happened to be beyond tired. I mean, I even went through 2 years of University before resisting. Well the day came and that was it for me. No turning back. Since then I've really explored different coffees and have tried to figure out why I like one over the other. Vancouver Coffee is part of the journey.

I think you are bang on with single origin. Some of the coffees I've really liked in the last month or so have been single origin. And, when they are good and they just set your taste buds on fire with flavour there is really no need for milk or sugar. For me, they are toppings. They are part of my mood. Milk and sugar have been a comfort thing for me harking way back to when I was a kid drinking tea with my grandmother.

I am really looking forward to meeting with Vince on Wednesday and re-examining your drip coffee. From what you and Vince say I am fervently hoping it was chance that brought those bad experiences my way and that you have something great to keep me coming back.

I am running around like crazy now with work, but when I return in July I'll stop in and say hi. I'd love to know more about your experiences and some of the things you can share with me and our readers. Cheers!

I for one see no need to go soft on Vince here at all. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to deduct what Arieanna's level of expertise is with regard to coffee, and to read her review in that context. In this way she represents the average coffee drinker in this city. Average coffee drinkers are allowed to have opinions and are allowed to express them as such. I had no problem recognizing her opinion was far from expert or informed.

All respect to Artigiano for their accomplishments (which are many), but watching Vince demean himself in such a low class and profane way on some poor girl’s PUBLIC message board, well that’s just wrong in so many ways. There’s more to PR than buying advertising space for faux newspaper columns, or blatantly sending out shills to post in the coffee threads on E-gullet. You might try a little humility. You've got a business to protect. Hire some PR and stay in the back room.

The truth about coffee in Vancouver is this: Every other competitor is woefully undercapitalized (that includes JJ) and as such can’t effectively compete. Artigiano’s exalted position remains primarily because no one has spent the money to take them on. They are good, but they are hardly the best they could be. As soon as a competitor with a higher ethic, deeper pockets, and the desire to be number one in coffee not just for the glory of it, but for (dare I say) the people (and the spirit of coffee itself) enters the market, you guys are going to be in serious trouble. This is especially true if swearing at people on public message boards is representative of what you guys really are about.

Do the right thing. Say sorry to this girl (no matter what she said to you in private) and your customer base a thousand times for your indiscretion. Make sure no toadies (I don’t mean you Mark) magically find there way over here to plead your case, and for goodness sakes – please please please – tell that Sammy guy to quit making kissy faces at me whenever I’m in the shop.

Hi Sparrow, you said:

"There’s more to PR than buying advertising space for faux newspaper columns, or blatantly sending out shills to post in the coffee threads on E-gullet"

" Every other competitor is woefully undercapitalized (that includes JJ)"

I know John Neate quite well, as a matter of fact for well over a decade. Does he know about your theories. You actually know about his financial state? Amazing.

For your info. we have never advertised in our history. We have built our business on great quality and consistent service. Please tell me who I sent out to post on egullet? You sound like someone just piling on. Sounds like you're a little jealous. If anything I have created more advertising to vancouvercoffee than anyone else. Just check the posts.

"Artigiano’s exalted position remains primarily because no one has spent the money to take them on. They are good, but they are hardly the best they could be. As soon as a competitor with a higher ethic, deeper pockets, and the desire to be number one in coffee not just for the glory of it, but for (dare I say) the people (and the spirit of coffee itself) enters the market, you guys are going to be in serious trouble."

We live in a free market. Grab some partners, raise some cash and come take me on. I'd love it. You'll see that running 5 cafes to a high standard is not as easy as it looks. Your comments confirm your jealous streak. I tell you what, there an open location close to one of our cafes, take it over come and compete. I am not scared of competition, I don't look at competition. Competition is a great thing, it only improves product, so why don't you put your money where your mouth is.

And just to confirm:

Arieanna and I have spoken and put this argument to rest. If you would have read her post above you would have understood this.

I'll also put this issue to you,when ever you would like to meet me at the cafe to go over what you don't like about us, I'd love to meet you. Maybe I can learn something. My hunch is that you won't because you're a little coward who hides behind his posts. It's so immature to press a send button and think you had the last word.

Be a man and if you have an issue with me, email me, call me, ask for me and we can sit down like men and discuss your issues. I think you'd rather make "kissy faces" with me instead.

Sparrow (fake, cowardly name) do the right thing and meet me. You might be surprised that you'll find a person who is actually willing to always learn, I put service and quality over my ego, wake up daily with a love and eagerness to be part of this coffee community.

I think other people in our industry don't think of us the way you do. It would be really wonderful to discuss this further with you.
vince

Before things get ugly, and from all this I've learned that things can get out of hand really fast even when no one actually wants to offend anyone, I want to say the following:

If you've had a bad experience with Artigiano I encourage you to contact Vince, he will be interested to hear what you have to say. If he learns that there is something wrong the he can fix it.

Anyone is welcome to post their opinions here, I just want to make sure that the conversation stays civilized. So please, no name calling and no accusations.

I don't want to censor what is said here, it is a public forum. So please keep that in mind and don't say anything that you may regret later.

Just to address some of Sparrow's points:

- JJ is definitely not underfunded when it came to Barista championship entries. They are now because John Neate has decided to not fund his Baristas any longer (after the Western CBRC); however before that, Neate and Co. spent *more* money than Artigiano to bring staff to Barista Jams in the US, to the SCAA in Atlanta, and other regional Barista competitions. They also organized (at some expense) several in house judging comps over the past few years. I know. I was there, as a judge, and also offering my Canon GL2 DV Cam for them to tape the proceedings. So that's false.

- "The guys on the top" are always cyclical. I've seen it in the US for half a decade now, and we'll no doubt see it up here in Canada as well. First out of the block was probably Zoka, being the "best cafe in Seattle" and hosting champs. Then they were overtaken by the likes of Victrola, Stumptown and others. Now you got Intelligentsia's coffee houses with 3 of the final 6 in this past year's USBC. One note of Artigiano's staying power in Canada is that they've been "the top" for three years running now. But I do believe it will be cyclical as well. One benefit an independent cafe has over a 5 store location is that they can easily play the role of darkhorse, and dedicate insane amounts of time to training and producing a rock star Barista. As long as the CBC doesn't derail, I have no doubts we'll see a few in the next few years, possibly someone who can dethrone the Artigiano boys. And you know what? That's all good, and I think Vince would be the first one to say it, because Vince and Sammy and Co literally thrive on competition - maybe even too much at times ;)

- Always easy to kick the kids at the top. This is what we're seeing here, and what we see in the US all the time. As soon as a cafe or company is identified or routinely talked about as being "the best", people on the Internet will always be in the wings to take shots at them. Sometimes legit, sometimes not. Happens all the time. Look at the beating that Intelly takes from time to time in the CG Forums - this, after many sang their praises a few years back for their grassroots effort to reach consumers (the big love in that helped craft the original Black Cat), and many felt it was the best blend going.

My only issue with some of the above comments is that, if you're going to criticise a company, have the guts (there's that word!) to identify yourself. I have no problems with criticism when it's founded; but it's tough to read some of it when it's from anonymous sources.

And... well, I can't address the comment "anyone with an opinion is qualified to post a review", other than to say, if you wrote "anyone with an opinion should be able to write a review", I'd be more likely to agree with it. The word qualified definitely doesn't fit.

Regards,

Mark

My bad Vince. You guys rock! I'm just trolling....

Hi Mark,
I couldn't agree with you more. I also couldn't have said it any better.

Please if anyone has had a bad experience at our cafe, I'd like to make ammends. Please contact me at [email protected]

As for the fake name poster above, if you have personal issues with me our my company, email me personally.

Have the "guts" as Mark stated above to show your face and resolve any issues you may have. Don't run behind your "send button".
Vince